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One factor tomorrow’s election will take a look at is People’ urge for food for chaos, significantly the type that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous couple of months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of working a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic employees author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer season interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the attitude of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign employees advised Alberta that they grew to become disillusioned about their skill to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.
Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election final result? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we speak with Alberta and one other Atlantic employees author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump remodeled over the summer season, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally supply recommendations on tips on how to handle your inside chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and it is a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. Sooner or later, their planes had been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.
Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about taking pictures reporters; Kamala Harris stated regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race remains to be one of many closest in American historical past.
Anyway, on this episode, I need to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me right now two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.
Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.
Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.
Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.
Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned right now?
Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.
Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply outdated. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I feel.
Leibovich: It’s undoubtedly flattering.
Alberta: We don’t use veteran.
Rosin: No, veteran is outdated. How about energetic?
Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very energetic. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?
Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to tips on how to method Tuesday evening.
Leibovich: Mainly, I’m making an attempt to gather a useful toolkit to tips on how to method Election Day from form of a sensible standpoint so far as what info you possibly can ignore, but additionally a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about tips on how to not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Evening protection will most likely overload you with.
And that features Donald Trump most likely declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, will probably be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, but it surely additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to type of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow evening will probably be like—which will probably be clearly very anxious for lots of people.
Rosin: I see. So as an alternative of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient info.”
We all know that there most likely isn’t going to be, form of, instantaneous early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes vast open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of possibly Tim wants this recommendation.
Leibovich: Properly, I’m making an attempt. Properly, I feel all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I feel it’s an method to how we devour info, how we get info.
I talked to a few Democratic consultants who stated that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any type of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Evening.
There may be loads of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely info that’s vital, which, essentially the most worthwhile info goes to return in most likely after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It might be days later. The concept is the information will discover you. Flip off your cellphone if you happen to can. Data is coming in haphazardly from 1,000,000 totally different instructions, out of order, in no explicit sequence in any respect, about one thing that has already occurred—which means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is mainly simply folks throwing info out in no order, and it’s not essentially—
Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—
Leibovich: —Not cumulative.
Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.
Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one purpose you possibly can skip that half.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing. Tim, do you assume you may try this?
Alberta: I worry that within the try to not drive myself loopy, I might drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’d discover your mind stacking up with all the issues that different folks know that you just don’t, as a result of in that second you have got determined to sequester your self or at the least to form of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.
And due to this fact the exit polling displaying the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that might be the little parcel of data that’s vital so that you can imagine that you’ve lastly discovered this electoral equation and that you’ve a bead on it on this second.
It’s a recreation of inches, and the inches are in every single place round us, Hanna. So how might I surrender any of these inches after we are so near the tip of the sport? I would like the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it real looking.
Rosin: Hmm. You know the way generally you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll take into account that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the disturbing a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been masking the Republican facet intently, and you latterly spent loads of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.
How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?
Alberta: I might describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.
Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I feel the context right here is actually vital: that this Trump marketing campaign, in contrast to the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly good.
The folks working the marketing campaign had accomplished a reasonably good job of holding Trump out of his personal means and speaking him out of unhealthy concepts and form of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is mainly Trump going full Trump, and an incapability amongst these senior advisers to actually do something to cease it.
This has been type of the proverbial slow-motion automobile wreck. And, you already know, it’s not simply Trump himself, though after all he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of all the turmoil that you just see.
He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so whenever you ask your self the query of how might or not it’s that at a very powerful public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay 1,000,000 {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how might this particular person probably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that atmosphere? It’s precisely the form of factor that the folks round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for a lot of the marketing campaign. However finally, in the important thing residence stretch right here, within the form of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.
Rosin: Mark, identical for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?
Leibovich: I might say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous couple of days.
It seems like one thing approaching the overall space of the ballpark of confidence.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing! Anomalous for Democrats.
Leibovich: Properly, they’re so extremely fast to embrace unhealthy information and to go proper from unhealthy information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous couple of days.
I imply, look, I feel their numbers internally appear slightly higher. I feel loads of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I feel you possibly can’t underestimate how a lot of a prepare wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a means that, if he loses, I feel folks will very a lot level to.
Rosin: So, Mark, I bear in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race can be. Like, we had been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.
Leibovich: However it was an ideal podcast. Everybody ought to take heed to it once more. (Laughs.)
Rosin: However it was very, you already know—we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button bought pressed in July.
Tim, the total Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous couple of months began, really, based on your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?
Alberta: I feel that possibly the right visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it largely to demise and is now simply form of pawing at it, toying with it, uncertain of actually what to do as a result of, properly, what’s left to do?
Donald Trump actually discovered himself, based on all of the reporting I did, form of over it. Kind of tired of working in opposition to Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this form of hapless outdated man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant means in opposition to Trump. And so I feel that he’s taking a look at Joe Biden pondering, Gosh that is form of a bore, and round this time, after all, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is best than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.
The battleground polling is displaying him constantly pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are getting ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, you already know, The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is form of giddy and gleeful. They’re trying round like, Nothing can cease us.
And round this time is whenever you began to see Trump speaking slightly bit otherwise, behaving slightly bit otherwise, based on folks near him—nearly searching for some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to folks on the skin. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was indignant, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it form of sewn up in opposition to Biden, and he appreciated working in opposition to Biden within the sense that Biden actually, you already know, couldn’t punch again.
However I feel additionally he’s form of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s bought this dwell goal. He’s capable of channel among the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You recognize, Trump, I feel, considered the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go complete hog once more.
However the folks round him had been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And admittedly, the explanation you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and working the type of, you already know, completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you just want to run and that you’d run if you happen to had been left to your individual units. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who had been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different folks to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.
Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?
Leibovich: I feel in a type of measured means. I imply, I feel, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want folks to amplify. I imply, to some extent you do, as a result of shops that loads of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from loads of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.
I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I feel they’ve been very deft—they’ve made loads of adverts across the type of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a lady’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to some extent, they’re making an attempt to spotlight it, however to a different diploma—it is a large political-operative cliché, however they’re working their race.
And I feel the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I feel Harris has carried out significantly better than lots of people thought she would, and I feel her marketing campaign has made loads of good selections, and she or he herself has made loads of good selections.
Rosin: It does, from the skin, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of if you happen to assume again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition won’t be clean.
Leibovich: Oh, one hundred pc. I imply, Tim and I, bear in mind, we had been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually type of at his peak then, which is type of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his reputation, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you may nearly sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I assume it was Thursday evening, after which about midway by means of, he simply type of went off the rails, and he simply form of—it grew to become only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from type of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try to one thing fully totally different, which type of grew to become a metaphor for a way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.
And naturally, three days later, Biden bought out after which the world modified once more.
Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic last months of the Trump marketing campaign might find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.
[Break]
Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we really care about is whether or not it has any affect on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe might have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re anxious about?
Alberta: Properly, look, if these episodes had been contained to only Trump being slightly bit goofy or going off message and form of ranting and raving in regards to the newest one who stated one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t assume it might have a lot real-world impact. However I feel that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that really will get to a elementary weak point, which is a failure of the Trump crew to develop its coalition.
Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the way in which by which the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the folks near him. So, for instance, we all know primarily based on six months of actually strong, constant information that Trump is more likely to carry out higher with Latino voters as an entire and significantly with Latino males below 40 than any Republican nominee in trendy historical past.
And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that considered one of your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.
One other core element of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How can we hold our margins tight within the suburbs outdoors of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How can we hold our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban ladies? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how can we handle to maintain it shut? How can we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as an alternative of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?
And whenever you have a look at, for instance, the choice of J. D. Vance and, you already know, his outdated, greatest-hits reel round childless cat women, and he thinks abortion must be unlawful nationwide, proper?
And there’s simply one thing that form of went essentially awry over the summer season. I feel Mark is true. Each of us had been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Evening victory get together. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking in regards to the marketing campaign as if it had been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats girl was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I bear in mind corresponding with a number of good Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, and so they had been slightly bit nervous in regards to the Vance choice. After which on Thursday evening, to Mark’s level, Trump offers this form of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander loads of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, you already know, 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and all of a sudden, these dominoes began to fall.
And what we noticed was all the best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was form of foolish he stated that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, but it surely’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I feel, can have an actual affect on the poll field.
Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they had been following pretty efficiently, which is: attempt to win over, you already know, some middle-of-the-road voters, or at the least not massively alienate these folks.
However, Trump has been working a really totally different type of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground assets. And that looks like a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.
The technique was all the time simply: get loads of consideration.
Alberta: I feel it is dependent upon the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, you already know, tons of of cameras following him round there and talks in regards to the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—you already know, that’s consideration, and it could even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump folks, proper? They have a look at this form of cost-benefit evaluation and so they acknowledge that, certain, we would antagonize some folks with this rhetoric. We’d alienate some folks with our give attention to these points, however we predict that the reward is way larger than the chance.
So there’s, I feel, loads of good consideration that the Trump folks do need. I feel what they’ve tried to keep away from is loads of the sideshow that’s interesting to among the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And finally on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.
Leibovich: Proper, and I feel, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient challenge for Trump. Once you tip that into folks consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they appear like fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really critical and efficient challenge for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.
Rosin: So the artwork of working a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the proper of chaos, the proper of consideration, however if you happen to lose management of it, it simply comes again to chew you. Is that mainly what’s occurred?
Alberta: Yeah, and it’s all the time gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These folks aren’t silly. They knew what they had been getting themselves into. The truth is, Chris LaCivita—who is among the two folks managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside just a few weeks of his resolution to hitch the operation again within the fall of 2022, you have got Trump saying that he needs to terminate elements of the Structure. You could have Trump saying and doing these form of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is form of trying round saying, What have I gotten myself into?
And naturally people who find themselves pals with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you had been signing up for. You recognize precisely what you had been getting your self into. So I feel no matter diploma of self-delusion might exist on the outset, when a few of these of us ally themselves with Donald Trump, you already know, it dissolves fairly shortly and so they develop into clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.
And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking habits, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which can be type of doubtlessly poisonous into productiveness. They’re making an attempt to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For a lot of the marketing campaign, they had been really doing a reasonably good job of it. However at a sure level I feel it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.
Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, slightly dose of confidence. Is that due to all the things that Tim has described?
Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I feel Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never identical to, Oh, look, he stated this and form of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications in regards to the revulsion that ladies are having—ladies voters are having for Trump—much more so than ordinary. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and possibly even mendacity to their husbands about—to type of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is mainly saying, you already know, loads of Republican ladies are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I feel they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I might say, you already know, it might most likely be an absolute verboten factor for anybody anyplace close to the Harris marketing campaign to indicate something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, you already know—Biden was purported to win by much more than he did.
And I feel what freaks everybody out is the concept that Trump, within the two occasions he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls and so they’re undercounting African American voters, ladies voters, and so forth.
So anyway, I feel all of that’s type of baked into this, however look, I don’t need to counsel that something apart from large anxiousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.
Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s depart the listeners with ideas about Election Evening. There’s the zen possibility, and hopefully lots of our listeners will make the most of the zen possibility.
Take a protracted, 12-hour stroll. Be residence by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. Wanting that, the map is actually vast and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s so much. So for many who are usually not spiritually constructed for the zen possibility, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the evening.
Leibovich: Properly, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I feel there’s so much you possibly can study if you may get info from different states. You recognize, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—loads of insiders have been speaking about over the previous couple of days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought-about a swing state. Safely crimson, actually has been in the previous couple of elections, actually for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday evening, having Harris forward by three.
Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric consequence for folks on Workforce Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, you already know, possibly present Trump’s margins slightly decrease than you’d anticipate, probably that’s one thing that you could study from.
So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which can most likely take some time to rely, particularly in among the states with legal guidelines that make it tougher to rely early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I feel we are able to study from lots of people.
And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that you already know precisely who’s going to win, however you possibly can study from.
Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of knowledge that’s fascinating. Tim, what about you?
Alberta: So there’s a identified identified, and a identified unknown. The identified identified is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to some extent younger voters.
And I feel particularly if we’re taking a look at Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we must be taking note of this, proper? I feel the identified unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get overwhelmed up amongst suburban ladies, or does he get demolished amongst suburban ladies?
And I feel that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.
So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties outdoors of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties outdoors of Milwaukee. It’s a must to have a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t need to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, finally, that’s the place the election goes to be gained or misplaced.
Rosin: Each of you might be saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply large, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you just’ll be searching for.
Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers recreation. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply constantly present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even if you happen to’re searching for a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper appears to be like like he’s going to win and possibly even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Evening in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to mainly a draw. I feel it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, you already know, a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.
So these are the elements of the nation the place I feel if you happen to’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a reasonably good thought.
Rosin: Okay. I feel we’ve choices for the meditators and choices for many who can’t carry themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on today earlier than the election.
Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.
Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We are able to meditate collectively.
Leibovich: I look ahead to it. Yep, we’ll be a part of figurative palms.
Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although probably sooner than our ordinary Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.
Thanks for listening.